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Snub Training – Replacing CTC Laser Stocks

CTC LS 205 Laser Stocks

What is your preference, the LG 105 or the LG 405 for a replacement of the LG 205 on a J frame?

Thanks for your help.

Mark L. 

 

Dear Mark:

I hope this note finds you well.

Thank you for the great question.

Personally I love the 205s I have on my J-frames. -They are the ONLY CTC lasers with a proper cut-out for use with speedloaders. – But they won’t/don’t last forever.

CTC LG 105 laser stocks

Regarding you question, if I had to replace the 205 I would lean toward the 105.

CTC LS 405 Laser Stocks

The 405 isn’t a bad item but the back-strap is covered with rubber. Nice (if marginal) for reducing recoil but it also reduces the snub’s deep concealability.

The rubber also tends to catch cover-clothing (prints) and can reduce draw-stroke speed. 

They both offer a sad excuse for a dished out area for speedloaders. The 405 has a very slight advantage in this area but the hard plastic on the 105 lends itself to some light Dremel work. A few light passes with the Dremel tool and you can get the 105 to work nearly as well as the old 205.

The only other complaint I have with the 105 is the very odd “bird-heads” style stock configuration.

The convex area where the laser’s on/off button is located is smaller in circumference than the circumference at the base of the stock’s butt area. 

The best way to understand the problem with this is to make a tight fist and gauge your strength. Then make a second fist but leave your ring finger extended.

The second fist will never be a strong as the first as long as the ring finger is prevented from curling in tight and under your middle finger.

The bird-heads flaring on the base of the 105 stock produces this result.

I few light passes with the Dremel tool on the base of the 105 stocks can reduce this defect.

Please note that you may not need to reduce the circumference on the base of the 105 stocks. Some shooters say that after awhile they no longer even note the issue.

But if after a few months of working with the 105 as compared with 205 you may want to address it.

Thank you again for the questions.

I hope this information is of some value.

Yours,

Michael

Snub Training – Loading strips with 4-Rounds (re-edit)

But why load only four rounds in each strip? Because loading four rounds in a five (or six) round snub is disproportionally faster than loading five rounds. Generally when timed and when using a loading strip filled with four-rounds, most five shot snub shooters are not 20% faster loading (four rounds insertion time vs. five rounds insertion time) but 30% to 50% faster. (Amount of time save will vary with individual shooters.) This is because the first two rounds can be inserted into any of the five available charge holes. (Inserted two-at-a-time the first two rounds can be inserted in empty charge hole numbers 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, or 5-1) The next two rounds have two loading options as regards the three remaining charge holes (charge holes 3-4 or 4-5) Most of the lost time (four rounds being 30% to 50% faster to load than five rounds) is spent trying to isolate and orient the last available round with the last available charge hole. Well four rounds now have to be of more value than an additional fifth or sixth round in a few more seconds. On the range and in a fight don’t waste half-again more time trying to line up that last round with that last charge hole.  Load four; it’s faster and get back in the fight now. Not enough time? – Load two rounds and get back in the fight. Still don’t have enough time? Load ONE ROUND and get back in the fight.

 

Before discussing this further it is important to note that a five-shot snub loaded with four rounds is not 80% loaded. It is 100% loaded, four times over. Too many shooters too easily dismiss the lesson that the single round makes the firearm 100% loaded.  I would like to remind the shooters who consider a partially filled cylinder a partially loaded revolver that CHP Officer Pence was murderer in Newhall, CA many years ago while trying to fill the cylinder of his duty revolver rather than shoot down his killer with his partially filled but fully loaded revolver.

 

If the shooter has time and insists that the snub must be loaded full and if the situation will safely permit it then access the second loading strip and load the last charge hole. These are a few of the reasons I believe carrying two 4-round loading strips gives the shooter multiple loading options.

How Many Rounds in a loading strip (re-edit)

Before reviewing any loading strip reloading method we should stop and consider how many rounds the loading strip should be filled with. There are several schools of thought regarding the number of rounds the loading strip should be filled with. 

Many shooters like to fill the six-hole loading strip with six rounds. Unfortunately filling all six holes makes quick dexterous manipulation of the loading strip difficult.  Filling the loading strip full leaves no convenient area with which to retain control of the strip and little room for applying leverage for peeling rounds off and into the cylinder’s charge holes.  If six rounds in a six round loading strip is less than optimal what is the right quantity?

Nationally known firearms trainer Massad Ayoob prefers to carry a single six-round loading strip down loaded to five rounds to reload his back-up snub. Why five rounds in a six hole loading strip? Massad was the first to note the advantage in loading up the speed strip with only five rounds. Leaving the empty hole on the loading strip end closest to the tab allows for faster, more positive reloading. Massad’s reloading method employs the use of the shooter’s strong hand index finger laid along the back of the speed loader and is predicated on his StressFire methodology. A complete description of his StressFire methods is outlined in his excellent book of the same title. 

Massad’s argument for five rounds is good but I have an alternative philosophy regarding the quantity, ammo count and dispersal of loading strips. I prefer to carry a pair of six-hole loading strips with each filled with four rounds.

I have several reasons for advocating the carrying of two loading strips each filled with four rounds. Most students assume that my number one reason is that carrying eight rounds is preferable to carrying five or six rounds. While true I only count the additional rounds as fourth on a four reason list. Reason one, with two loading strips if I ever drop or loose a loading strip I have a second strip I can reach for rather that hunt on the ground for my lost dropped strip. Reason two, by keeping one strip in my front pocked and a second in my back pocked I have the option of accessing a strips and reloading when in either a face-up or face-down position. Reason three, because I am generally carrying a pair of snub revolvers, one of which I am prepared to pass off to “a trusted other” in an emergency. This includes my wife, a friend or a visiting trainer who may not legally be carrying in my home state. The availability of a second strip gives me the option of handing off spare ammunition to that person along with the snub.

Snub Training – Reloading with the loading strips (Re-edited)

Having filled the loading strips with rounds the shooter now has an option of four techniques for pealing off the rounds and loading them in the cylinder’s charge holes. The shooter can:

One – Twist the loading strip counter-clockwise while keeping the loading holes flat against the face of the cylinder.

 Two – Twist the loading strip clockwise while keeping the loading holes flat against the face of the cylinder.

 Three – Peal the loading strip in a straight line, forward and away from the shooter.

 Hour – Peal the loading strip in a straight line, rearward and toward the shooter.

Of the four techniques numbers One and Two are the least popular. Both of these techniques are failure prone. Both techniques habitably release additional rounds out of the loading strip and drop them onto the floor. 

There are three reasons that both these techniques tend to drop rounds.

First, when twisting off the first two inserted rounds a third round will regularly contact the outer wall of the cylinder. This contact with the cylinder’s wall levers the third round out of the loading strip causing it to fall to the ground. 

Second, when the loading strip is being twisted it is often also being flexed in a cork-crew fashion. The additional twisting rotation opens up the holding holes and permits the rounds to fall out of the loading strip.

Third, the first and second problems can occurred in concert with each other. If the mechanics of the first problem is not sufficient to dislodge extra rounds then the mechanics of the second problem is often enough to finish the job.

Part of the solution is to vigorously dissuade shooters from using either of these methods while practicing reloading from loading strips.

Either of the remaining loading strip techniques will avoid the above noted problems. Both remaining techniques enjoy vocal advocates and knowledge of both methods should be in every snub owner’s collection of reloading techniques.

Snub Training – Reloading videos

John M. was kind enough to pass along these links to some interesting revolver reloading demos.

– Thank you John.

 

Dear Michael:

Mas Ayoob shows some reloading stuff – 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXUwI_d8JlA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMAXlT3ZLzs

Additionally, here are some other vidoes – 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TijBlQUlW_g&feature=player_profilepage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4mVI27Msyo&feature=player_profilepage

This is definitely the fastest reload method of the bunch –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8lxqpdHi_0&feature=player_profilepage

– John M.

Snub Training – Filling the loading strip (Re-edited)

There are a few terms you may need to know. Speed Strips and the QuickStrips are both loading strips. We fill the loading strip. We reload the revolver. We fill the loading strip. The rounds are held in the loading strip’s holding holes. There is a flange tab on one end of the loading strip. Remember to practice with dummy rounds until you feel comfortable with the techniques.  Always train in a safe area and always keep your muzzle in a safe direction.

The first loading strip skill to know is how to fill them. Start with an empty loading strip. Position the loading strips diagonally across your left hand’s index finger.  Position the pad of your left index finger directly underneath the first loading hole. Keep the Loading strips in place by pinching one end of the Loading strips between the thumb and middle finger of your left hand.

Hold the cartridge to be loaded in the fingers of your right hand. While canting the base of the cartridge insert the edge of the rim into the holding hole.

Once the edge of the rim is in the holding hole, lever the remaining portion of the rim into the holding hole.  Move to the next holding hole and repeat until you have filled the Loading strips.

Snub Training – Loose Rounds (Re-edit)

There are several reasons why a shooter might want to practice reloading skills using only one, two or three loose rounds. 

1 – A partially loaded cylinder is a fully loaded weapon. This lesson often needs reminding.

Try a simple test. If the cylinder holds five rounds and you load the cylinder with four rounds then what percentage is the gun loaded? Here is a hint – four divided by five is eighty percent. So by what percentage is the gun loaded loading if you load four rounds in a five shot revolver? If you said eighty percent you need to rethink you gun handling. Four rounds loaded into a five round cylinder means the gun is loaded one-hundred percent. A single round loads the gun one-hundred percent. You do not need the cylinder full to have a loaded weapon. At least one of the four policemen killed during the Newhall, CA shootout was reported to have died trying to load his sixth of six rounds into his duty revolver. That man died holding a weapon that was already loaded five times over. Might that officer have been better served by his instructors if they had taught him a partially loaded cylinder is a fully loaded gun? Isn’t it sometimes better to get back in the fight with a loaded revolver rather than taking the time to fill a cylinder?

2 – A partially loaded cylinder helps a shooter develop a flinch free shooting habit. Load only one or two rounds per cylinder and you will self-correct yourself every time the hammer falls on an empty cylinder and you flinched anticipating a live round.

3 – A partially loaded cylinder will help demonstrate how much more quickly you can cycle through to a live round rather than trying to manually index an available live round.

Here is a simple two-part training exercise. You will need a friend with either a stopwatch or a PACT style timer and a safe shooting area.  Start with a single round. Have your friend start the timer as soon as he gives you a load signal. You can load the single round into any available charge hole. When the round is in the cylinder’s charge hole manually index the cylinder so that with the next pull of the cylinder the round will come under the hammer. Find your target, aim and fire. Have your friend record the time from the load signal to your first shot.

Now repeat the drill with one small change. After loading the single round into the cylinder make no effort to mechanically index the cylinder.  Simply close the cylinder and trigger through the empty charge holes until the round rotates to the fire position. Remember to keep the muzzle pointed at your target and in a safe direction. Again have your friend record the time from the load signal to your first shot.

Compare the time differences between manually indexing the round versus reflexively triggering past the empty charge holes.  You will almost certainly find that triggering past the empty charge holes is statistically faster than trying to manually indexing the next available round. This knowledge can be of valuable in certain self-defense situation

4 – If a shooter is in the habit of indexing the cylinder he may need to be reminded that under stress a partially loaded cylinder will not automatically index itself.

Once when I was at the SIG Academy I set up the following artificial drill. I told the shooter that he would have time to load two rounds but that he was to reload against the clock. As soon as he loaded his two rounds he was to turn to the target and get off two fast, accurate shots. If he got off both rounds in under four seconds he would pass the drill. The shooter rushed to get both rounds loaded, turned to the target and still racing the clock pulled the trigger three times. Click-Click-Click.  Believing the rounds had misfired he dropped his shoulders in defeat and we suspended the drill.  When I asked him why he stopped he told me that the rounds failed to fire. No, I reminded him, the gun was still hot. He was so used to loading the gun and indexing the cylinder that he came to condition himself to believe that the gun will do it for him in an emergency.

Snub Training – 3-inch L-frame snub

3-inch L-frame S&W

Michael,

I ran across a S&W model 686 L-frame in a round butt, 3” barrel configuration. 

Do you have any experiences with this model and configuration?  The gun shoots great but at 35-ounces empty, is it too heavy for carry in holster on a belt? 

Any experiences and/or holster recommendations for this set up would be appreciated.

Yours,

Randy H.

 
 
Dear Randy:

I hope this note finds you well.

Thank you for the great question.

I think the 3-inch L-frames are great guns. I could see it as a house gun but the muzzle blast in a narrow hall could be a problem. I would also cheerfully carry one if I was planning any deep woods camping or hunting trips.

Where I think the 3-inch L-frame really shines is as a very effective cold weather/winter snub in and around the city.

In the cold weather I can easily hide a larger carry holster under the typical winter jackets and I would be very happy with its ability to punch through heavy winter clothing.

I am about average in size 5’11” and 195-lb. I find that most large frame snubs are easy to hid in the winter, a little challenging in the spring and fall and very hard to hide in the summer.

You may be a larger fellow and might find it easier to conceal a large gun in the spring, summer and fall.

If you can conceal it then only the weight of the gun becomes the issue. You would need a well made holster and an equally well made belt.

Matt Del Fatti SSR Holster

Of all the outside the waist holsters I would recommend a set from Matt Del Fatti.

You will have to contact his shop though. Last I checked he was not taking any more orders until he had caught up with his current waiting list.

That said, if he made me wait 12- to 18 months for one and I hade a 3-inch L-frame I would still think it was worth the wait.

If you really come to love the gun and you find you can comfortable conceal it you might want to hunt around for one of S&W’s (very) short runs of the alloy weight L-frame snubs.

The heavy gun would make a great late fall and winter gun. The light weight version would make a great spring and summer gun.

If you set them up with the same stocks, sights, etc., you could have a great range/carry/4-season set.

The only two (small) down side –

1) The L-frame options for speedloaders is a little more limited than the K-frames.

2) The rear adjustable sight can chew up a lot of cover garments.

Cylinder and Slide's Extreme Duty Fixed Sights

Cylinder and Slide makes a very nice replacement “fixed” rear sight that replaces the adjustable sights on the K, L and N frame guns. 

I have one on an adjustable K-frame snub and I think it would work great on a L-frame carry snub.

I hope this info helps a little.

If I missed anything please let me know. 

Thank you again for the great question.

Yours,

Michael de Bethencourt

Snub Training – The book

Dear Fellow snub shooters:

I hope this note finds you well.

About eighty-five percent of what I hope to be the first book in a three volume set of snub revolver skills is complete.

Starting this week, every second day I plan to post some newly re-edited sections and start outlining many of the actual shooting drills used in the snub class.

Posting the material every second day will give me time to sort through the corrections and suggestions so many of you have been kind enough to offer.

When this final material is up on the computer I will collect all of it in a monograph form and if interest permits make available a sample copy to the readers of this blog

The monograph copy will give us a chance to see the book sample in its near final form.

With this sample we can note and correct any text and photo issues before the first volume goes off to the publisher.

More importantly with a print sample we can identify any sections that you as a reader think need to be added, expanded or reduced.

I am looking forward to getting the remaining material up on the computer and
I am looking forward to working with many of you in helping to put out a monograph we can all enjoy.

I hope you will join me in the next few weeks as we get this material ready for its first printing.

Yours,

Michael de Bethencourt